That's all awesome news man and I'm glad to hear it! Rx T here you come!!
- Valdez
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You are more excited about it than I am. lol. I have fought against TRT for years, using T boosters that had modest results.
People might ask "Why wouldn't you want to go on TRT?"
My answer is that once I go on, it is a lifelong commitment for me. Frankly, sticking myself every week for the next 40 years isn't really all that exciting to me. I don't mind it, but it does become an inconvenience after a while. I stuck myself plenty when I was young and the "excitement" of it wore off 20 years ago. If I do it again, it is for the sake of just taking my prescription so I can hopefully feel better and return back some of the vitality I had a few years ago.
One advantage, of course, is no PCT. If I cycle anything else alongside the TRT then that is one detail I do not have to be concerned with. Most of the regulars from PP's board know that I'm pretty conservative when it comes to usage anyway and I'd rather have a good natural test level and have to do PCT.
Anyway, that's my take on things.
Of course, as you know, you don't necessarily have to stick yourself. In my jurisdiction, injectable T is not legally available, even with a scrip, so my TRT has been built around topicals. I guess I've tried 3 now, the latest being Bayer's Testogel, which is the best of the lot. It's a gel with what smells like a high alcohol content, and it dries very quickly - much, much faster than PP's most recent gels. I do 2 packets a day, one in the am, 1 in the pm - which is 100mg of T/day. No idea what the net absorption amount is, but my measured T level as of most recent bloodwork - 2 months ago - was 800. Not too shabby considering I tested at about 10 before going on TRT. It's made a huge difference, and not just or most importantly, in the gym, although the overall sense of vitality and positive mental energy of course has contributed there a lot too.
I use Testogel when I am in Sweden. (my wife is from there) Swedish law is more strict than US law when it comes to steroids. They only allow a 14 day supply to brought in for personal use. So, if I'm there longer than that, I need a script from a Swedish doc, and the pharmacy only carries Testogel. Here's the dig: it's $75 for one month supply, full cost. My cost here in the US for Testim for one month is $164!!!. We are getting ripped off big time here in the US.
Here's a tip: shave your scrotum and penis. Put about 1/3 to 1/2 of the packet on there. Put the rest on your chest. The effect is tremendous. This is what I have done for 4 years now, and I'm still alive, though I have much more body hair now. haha. One down side is my cholesterol is highish, but good diet and lots of exercise help keep it below 200.
I also take Formadrol Extreme (1 cap per day) and nettle root extract to control E2. My GP is not very thorough about hormone testing. He just requires a total T once per 6 months, plus a complete blood workup also. So, from my experience, I know that E2 goes way up when on TRT, so I take precautions against that. I miss Novadex XT. That was good stuff.
So, that's some more of my personal experience, for what it's worth. I'm 53, I'm not huge or powerful, but sure do look a lot better than all of the other men my age. I'm 6'3", 200 lbs, size 36 pants waist (sometimes size 34).
good luck with your journey.
Good feedback, Sperwer. A friend of mine is also doing the daily topical. Without his insurance he said it would cost him about $400 a month, but I think he pays about $120. He started with injections but had some kind of allergic reaction to the injectable and so he switched.
I don't "mind" injecting. I'm just not excited about it like some guys get. This isn't a moment for me of "oh, cool, I get to be on testosterone all the time". It has come down to a necessity. To be honest, though injecting weekly for the rest of my life will be a small inconvenience, I would rather do that instead of using a daily topical. The less it interferes with my life, the better it is for me. There are some days that I know I just wouldn't get around to applying a daily topical, which would interfere with my results.
Interesting about 100mg/day topical results in an 800 ng/dl test level. I would say that for most people, injectable test of 125mg/day would probably get them to that level. This indicates that less than 1/3 of that topical testosterone is absorbing. Hard to say, though, since your starting levels were so low. It may take significantly more for your body to get up to those levels.
In regards to your results... sounds like much of what I am looking for and have been missing. My mental acuity and memory has suffered, along with my overall vitality/well-being. Better recovery in the gym would be nice, too. Glad to hear things have gone well for you.
Do you use anything else along with your TRT protocol?
Here is the reason for my excitement - your likely going to feel MUCH better than the struggle you've currently been dealing with trying to boost natural levels. You're going to save yourself some trial and error time because you KNOW testosterone works!
As far as injections go don't be too sure that you're absolutely going to have to do that for the rest of your life. Compounding pharmacies have a whole plethora of different delivery methods that work just as well as injections these days. I've seen a few different new methods that have been giving people great success dude.
Pellets - you only have to deal with that every 6 months. They do test pellets, and estrogen control pellets.
Lotion - not t gel, not axiron, it's a straight up lotion. If you'd like I can get the specifics of it for you so that you can have the same made.
With both of these methods I've seen steady levels of 900-1200. No peaks and drops like with injections. Just steady cruising : )
You can get the Rx from your same Dr and then have it turned into a compounding pharmacy to be made.
While I understand your hesitation, I think ultimately quality of life should be considered. What sort of effects effects will this have on just your mood alone? Energy? Recovery? When these factors are considered a glass half full mentality might be seen.
For what it's worth, if it were me, I would be doing the same thing as you. From the sounds of it, you've been exhausting other options for years, might as well give the one you know works a try.
My 2 cents.
- Valdez
^ Great post.
Don't forget the new deodorant application! haha
My doc is an endo with heavy-duty specializations in anti-aging and nutrition. Before we even started on the Test, he had me using various nutritional/vitamin strategies to boost test, thyroid function, control cholesterol, reduce fat, regulate E, etc. Those didn't produce any particularly significant improvements in Test (although it did generate some), but I've continued most of them since they seem to have had other desirable effects. Probably, the single biggest ongoing interventions other than the Test are DHEA, 100mg/day, and 2.5 mg letrozole once a week. Here's the rest of the list:
Multivitamin (I use 1 Animal Pak)
Kaneka Ubiquinol 200mgx2 ED
Vitamin C 2000mgx2ED
Alpha Lipoic Acid 300mgx2ED
Green Tea Catechin 500mgx2ED
Grape Skin Extract (Resveratrol) 300mgx2ED
D3 5000IU/ED
Selenomethione 200mcg/ED
Lecithin 1200mgx2ED
Betaine 1000mgx2ED
Calcium citrate 300mgx2ED
Magnesium 200mgX2ED
Folic Acid 1mg/ED
Methylcobalamine 400mcg/ED
Pyroxidine 50mg/ED
White Button Mushrooms 3 heads/day
High Lignan Flaxseed Powder, 1 TBSP/day
Sesame Seed Powder, 1 TBSP/day
Legalon (milk thistle extract) 140mgx3ED
Entelon (vitas vinefera extract) 150mgx2ED (more resveratrol)
Biotin 400mcg/ED
Red yeast rice 1200mg/ED
Last bloods, my E was a whopping 60; E2 14. Total Cholesterol was 195: LDL 130 HDL 50 TGLYC 94
Thanks for the info, Valdez. I'm not aware of all the testosterone "potions", but it's funny that two of you mentioned the deodorant-style one, as I rarely watch tv, but just happened to see that same commercial in the last week. Though using a daily cream sounds like something easy to forget or get too busy to do, the deodorant one actually makes sense as it is a normal morning activity. I know one of my friends is using the pellet implants and another friend is getting his compounded.
Sperwer, wow, you have quite a regimen! You've done well with your cholesterol, too. Glad to see that.
..and it's official. Here is to a better feeling you.
i hope you've found the relief you've been looking for, you deserve it.
good luck.
Thanks guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by h2s
Doc wants me to start at 200mg/e2weeks for now. In 3 months we will do a pre and post injection blood test and check levels. Dosage adjustment from there. I asked about injecting every week and she wanted to start with every two weeks and then change from there as needed in 3 months. She was open to weekly injections and says some of her patients inject weekly now. I will comply for now. Any increase will be good at this point.
You'll notice that my Test levels were higher than originally stated in this thread. The endo didn't believe the earlier results I had gotten, and did 3 consecutive tests early in the morning, rather than later morning as the original had been done. All 3 of the new tests came out nearly identical.
Hematologist cleared me and said that my RBC count was good to go and that this out of range (slightly) number might be normal for me and that all my other numbers looked great.
so your gonna do 100 every week right? going more than a week between injections is ludicrous.
edit:just read everything. i'd just do 100 every week man. i've yet to read about people on trt feeling fine going over a week. in fact, a lot recommend every 6 days cuz by day 7, your level is pretty fukin low. i mean, we all know about esters and what not so it just seems way silly to not inject weekly.
I'll comply with her wishes for 3 months and once she adjusts dosage, I'll probably start injecting weekly. Here is my thought: She wants to see (in 3 months) what my total and free levels are at their lowest (two weeks after an injection) and then 24 hours after an injection. I need to show her those true numbers. If they are still on the low end or if I am not feeling much better, she will likely increase my dosage. If I start injecting weekly now, she will not see the low point she is looking for or is accustomed to seeing. I don't mind waiting 3 months at all. This whole thing has been a 7 year journey. What's 3 months?
Oh, and by the way... the vial cost me $10. lol.
Could always run 100 weekly then wait 2 weeks before your test.. Number will be low. Then inject 100 and get bloods for the 24 hours after and say it was 200. My dad is on trt as of a year ago.
Doc wanted him to do 300 every 3 weeks lol. An endocrinologist.
He did what I said above and the doc told him to bump it to 600 every 3 weeks.
So now he does 2 shots of 100 a week and feels great!
Same vial as you and everything hah
Burly, what about your adrenals, thyroid? Also your IGF levels could be better. As for protocol- IMO more frequent injecting would be better. Also HCG should be used as well, IMO.
In the end, did they diagnose you as a primary or secondary?
I agree on the more frequent dosing, and as I mentioned above, I plan to do so once the doc is happy with the dosage. In the end, I think 2x week would be even better, but for now I am giving the doc what she wants to see.
As far as the HCG, I was planning to approach that subject with her once my testicles shrivel up more. I'm sort of taking the "one thing at a time" approach. Once the shrinkage occurs, I think there will be a more valid reason for her to prescribe it.
As far as IGF levels... will TRT improve that? Or does that take HGH? That's an area where my knowledge is lacking.
Let me see if I can dig up the last thyroid test that was taken. Pretty sure the adrenals have never been tested unless that is tested with a thyroid test.
She diagnosed me with secondary hypogonadism.
J...
The last thyroid test I can find record of is as follows:
Result Range
TSH .84 .34-4.82
This was dated August of 2010
Thing with HCG is that it helps out a bit with thyroid and adrenals as well as maintaining testicular function. I'm bit worried how your body will cope with testosterone shots. IGF may improve with TRT and exercise if not then HGH or GHRP's may be an option- from my observation- it seems that few guys that had heart attack/and other issues had a relatively low IGF levels, and also GH/IGF help with lot of repairs and recovery in body.
As for adrenals- ACTH test seems on lowish side, but ACTH is not one of the things I know lot of anyway it may indicate that your pituary is not stimulating your adrenals enough, but I may be wrong here- anyway if you start feeling weak, sleepy, difficulties getting out of bed that may likely be adrenal issues. TSH looks good, but again it may be your underactive thyroid- so pay attention to your body temp. that will tell you story about thyroid and even bit about adrenals
Side note- reading about your RBC, I just remebered that people who were taking aspirin even if they had a stroke/heart attack it did not leave permanent damage to their heart/brain. Even if taken after stroke/attack it still had a huge benefits.
I was unaware of HCGs stimulatory affect on thyroid and adrenals. Good info. I'm familiar with the aspirin studies. I'm wondering how TRT will affect the ACTH. At least now that we have a baseline, we can note future changes.
Well, you have enough knowledge to pinpoint possible issues, but hopefully it wont come to that. Hopefully it will all go smooth, and your endocrine system picks up nicely.
J, I know that thyroid can affect T levels, but can the opposite also be true when talking about exogenous T?
Very informative thread here. Lots of good food for thought.
Of course, at the moment you are at "slow motion" your metabolic rate is low, and everything is slow- once you start adding T your adrenals needs to shift into higher gear and thyroid needs to pick up, and increase metabolic rate and to put you in "normal speed motion". If your thyroid fails to pick up, you'll crash. Hopefully that will not happen, actually I'm more worried about your adrenals, but will see, at the moment we dont have sufficient data.
A study done on rats using 2mg of test prop per day showed an increase in thyroid hormone secretion rate so you should see an improvement there.
I know tren can decrease t3 though so if you were for instance considering using tren with trt at some point as some people do you might find the improvement in your thyroid amelieorated by the tren. I do wonder though whether it matters because I wonder if the decrease in t3 is merely the body's way of balancing out your metabolism and so your overall energy expenditure and functionality is the same due to some other effect tren may have elsewhere on metabolism.
Great thread. Just got caught up. I went through similar routes as you. I did everything I could to stay "natural" mostly for competitions and such. My test was 183 though, same testing scenario as you. IE multiple early morning tests to verify. Currently on a 150 test c. every 2 weeks schedule. Started at 200 a month for two months just to look for any side effects.
In my case probably the biggest gain has been in clarity of thought! I knew my energy was getting lower and I wasn't healing as fast as I should. But, the real shock was after the second injection, I literally felt like I woke up from a long nap! Still working with my doc to make adjustments but the quality of life change has been worth the effort. I need to discuss HCG with him when we meet next.
Hope everything works out well for you, I'm sure it will.