Weve gone over it several times but he seems to be stuck with that thought?
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Weve gone over it several times but he seems to be stuck with that thought?
I do take on board your comments, and actually i am not 100% convinced either way with regards to whether Res is anti DHT or not, however i do see the logic in the argument that it is - to whatever extent - which i have seen made by multiple people on other sites.
My biggest motivator in not using it in favour of - eventually - aromasin, is the simple fact that i have used Res repeatedly and not been positively affected by it at all, whereas, i tried low dose anastrozole and i felt a big improvement.
Res might well not be anti DHT and i know it brings down E, but apparently not with me, or not enough with me. The fact that there is a coherent argument that it has anti DHT properties is secondary, but nonetheless, it is a factor in my decision making.
DIM looks to me to be certainly anti DHT, personally i wouldn't take that, however i respect the fact that CD got better while taking it.
I bare in mind in my decision making, the fact that some guys function brilliantly with balanced T and E, and DHT is just the cherry on the cake, but not necessary. The same was the case for me for the first 6 months on Fin, despite obvioulsy having 70% less DHT, i functioned brilliantly, it must have been the ever worsening E/T ratio that got me in the end, so in my head, logically, some guys may well recover with DIM etc. but that would be through the recovery of proper T and E ratios, not necessary through the re-establishment of DHT.
So if i can maximise DHT by avoiding things that may be anti DHT as well, at the same time as balancing T and E then logically recovery can come quicker and better.
I am by the way writing this in a very close to recovered state - touch wood!
None of this means i am not respectfull of your opinions on DIM and Res - you both may well be correct. I'm just hedging my bets using logic that's all. If there were no virtually side effect free cheap pharma AI's available that definitely don't touch DHT, i would be mainlining DIM and Res.
Having bloods drawn in two weeks, so we'll see what's happening then.
I felt awesome the first four or five months on finasteride. This was before I knew or cared about hormones, but was an effect of my skyrocketing Testosterone. And yes, it is the changing balance of T/E and the fact that you have no DHT to counter the E that ends up causing the hormonal crash in the end.
And please.. I'm in no way saying this because I think you're being disrespectful or anything of the sort. We're all big boys here. I'm just saying that I had positive experiences with Resveratrol products in keeping my E down to manageable levels and never did I experience the feeling of my DHT being squashed. We all intimately know what that feels like. DIM was just one of the things that I cycled and I wouldn't contribute anything to that one herb alone. If Res doesn't work for you and you find something that works better, then by all means, use what makes you feel the best. I was just gun shy of using anything pharmaceutical after my ordeal, that's all. If you're not, then keep doing what works.
No dogma here. This is a multifaceted issue and there is bound to be many avenues of relief if applied properly.
Resveratrol is not that reliable in lowering estrogen, it does work for some but for some people it does not work,
it certainly did not work for me. It did increase blood flow and I felt it was ok as a preworkout and erections were bit better, I was also bruised more easily.
Not sure on its effect on DHT, it seems that it interferes with some androgen receptors in prostate- but its overall effect on DHT is not researched properly.
Thanks for the replies, I have a habit in life of offending people by telling it how i see it so i was maybe being overcautious as i respect you guys.
I am putting on muscle fast at the moment so something must be right. Almost 14 stone (about 200Lb) and not much fat on me. I am starting to look good again which helps. Sexually i am regaining confidence and i haven't had ED for many months, sensitivity downstairs still shite, but that takes time right? The other thing that bugs me is i haven't had oily skin return. I would like that back alot- especially as pre-fin i would have to wash my face with soap twice a day to get rid of the grease, now i am using moisteriser every day. All in all though i am in miles better shape since starting on the AI.
I have a problem though:
OK, so i saw the doc this morning. A good one and he wants to help by prescribing me aromasin, but can't because the UK just don't do stuff like that, and my endo won't either, my original source for the AI i am currently on is now no good. It is clearly not helpful to buy it from websites i know nothing about, not least because i would have to re-start the whole dosing thing again and again. Hours of research reveal nothing but argument about the websites validity. Where the fuck does a complete beginner start?............ I might be taking this stuff for years, so i could do with minimising risk.
On a similar subject, should i be able to find a reliable source, does anyone know the comparative dosage for Aromasin versus Anastrozole? I am on 1mg a day of Anastrozole right now and i am feeling better each day, so i would want to start from the equivalent with Aromasin.
I need to make the switch fairly soon because historically i had total Cholesterol of 7.5 - I got it down to 5 through diet and exercise but then fin hit and i am now eating saturated fat for fun - fuck knows what the lipids will look like now.
If you guys can stand the questioning, here's another one for you - with a future that looks like aromasin for another year or more, and also a continuing diet of quality sat fats to keep T up, i could do with drinking the benecol yoghurts that contain the plant stanols etc.
Do these products have any kind of knock on affect with the things i am presently achieving? I am aware Cholestorol is converted to T so just checking.
(It was benecol and the cholestorol lowering spreads that originally helped me reduce it to 5 from 7.5)
Thanks guys for any help you can give me. I truly appreciate the support i have received thus far.
There is not that much cholesterol needed to build up hormones, in young guys very low cholesterol is usually caused by hyperthyroidsm and little bit high hypothyroidsm. Definitelly dont need more than 4.
As for AI, I dont think you'll needed for a year, or even if you do it will be modest dose. At some point with decent lifestyle and if you do "clomid restart" that could resensitise receptors and that could potentially solve the problem.
I appreciate that a great deal Jel, thank you.
Oh, and regards your comments on Clomid re-start, can you explain a bit more about the point of that. I will be shocked if my T is not somewhere between 22 and 28 as it was 19.9 last time without an AI. It was high SHBG causing my symptoms, via high E. So surely going on clomid would raise E2 again, thus raise SHBG further, which would mask any additional androgen from receptors - so how would they re-sensitise?
Would be good if i could get through this just via the AI - i put on a previous post that i read about a dude who's T went to over 50 when he took his E down to 25. I reckon T of 50 should be enough to re-sensitise right?!!! I actually read of another guy with virtually identical numbers since - both these guys post finasteride by the way, both recovered.
Happy to go clomid though if i can't replicate those 2 lucky dudes, and if you can give me some understanding of why it would help.
And i'll get back on the benecol then.
To understand why I think clomid may help, it would be best if you read this thread: Clomid For Men With Low Testosterone by Jeffrey Dach MD
Some more info here: Clomid Nolva PCT
If things go well than you may not need clomid restart, its just an additional option.
You are right that SHBG will go up on clomid, for time being, but it should sort itself out eventually.
Thanks for that Jel, i did read those reports a while back when i was considering clomid as an option, in fact i read just about everything out there on clomid and nolva. The reason i didn't got with it is because there is a huge list of clomid failures on the Propecia Help forum with literally just a couple of successes from hundreds of attempts. Dr Shippen and co use this treatment successfully for almost all hypogonadal patients but from what i have read he hasn't scored a single successful treatment of a post fin patient, despite them queueing up at his door to be treated. (by successful i mean the patient feels better and can get off clomid and still feels better)
Post fin guys are complex cases - what can i say.
Anyway, i am not showing a hypogonadal profile anymore so i am extremely hopeful that just the AI will be enough. Slow and steady, consistent application of diet, exercise, mind control and hormone tweaking rather than tugging tend to win the race when it comes to post fin guys - No clue why, just the way it seems to be.
I wish there was a quicker way, but hey, shit happens.
I completely understand your reasoning.
Dont know effect on clomid on fina users, but my logic is that as clomid blocks estrogen receptors in brain, they become more sensitive to estrogen (somewhat)- if receptors are more sensitive to estrogen pituary acts quicker and stops producing estrogen- less sensitive receptors more chances of build up of estrogen, and when estrogen is high than one of mechanism of body is increasing SHBG as body is trying to hold on testosterone more and prevents from excessive aromatisation- wheter that would work for you is questionable, but my reasoning is same as with playing lottery- not much to lose.
And also- using AI to lower E2 and increase testosterone is not something to rely on long term, as typically people in that situation end up with both low testosterone and estrogen.
IMO, high level of aromatisation is symptom and not a cause, treat cause and symptoms should disappear.